The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society - Fighting Blood Cancers
51 Replies Last post: Nov 20, 2009 1:45 PM by Tex   1 2 3 4 Previous Next
Mudrunner   28 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated

Nov 6, 2009 8:30 PM

Looking for Liberal Logic

A few weeks ago while lunching with some of my geezer bike buddies I engaged one of the few “liberal” ones relative to the multitude of impending health care bills. He owns several restaurants so one could easily assume his political viewpoint would be “conservative” in nature. Not so. After much heated (but friendly) discussion, I could only conclude that his logic was so inconsistent on this particular issue as to be completely incomprehensible. In a nut shell, he wanted government run health care because of his (genuine) concern for the uninsured, while simultaneously complaining about his current tax load.

 

Earlier today an exchange took place with a person holding what I now believe to be a similarly illogical set of operating principles. During my walk-about shortly afterwards, the single remaining brain cell I retain cogitated (hence the appellation “codger”) on that exchange and I felt compelled to put thought to paper upon my return home.

 

In as much as I know very few “liberal” people I’m not sure if it’s a problem with my own logic or I just came across two illogically liberal people by accident.

 

The flow went like this. I stated that if worldwide wealth was evenly distributed everyone would have a little less than $9000 in net worth. Furthermore, any “spread the wealth around” liberal retaining more personal wealth than this is clearly a hypocrite. To this came a response that this person was certainly not impoverished (more than $9k?) and should be voting Republican (is this joined at the hip with “conservative”?) which I took as indicative of having a LOT more than $9k.

 

I suggested a perfect Marxian exchange between the two of us. He should send me his money down to the “fair” $9k level because I have a need for it, and he has the wherewithal to pay it. No joy. He proclaimed to be a liberal but not a socialist. In today’s political climate, I find little to distinguish the two. As further proof of capitolistic non-socialism his stated goal was to pay a million a year in taxes. This immediately poses several questions in the logic train.

 

First, if he’s so eager to send a million into the black hole of government, why not send it to a deserving person (me) instead? That would be the compassionate thing to do in helping his fellow man (me) and I’d make much better use of it than Barney or Nancy would. It truely would be stimulating to my economy!

 

Second, unlike NOT paying the Benevolent Borgovernment Collective …there’s no law keeping him from making his goal in flying colors this very instant by immediately sending everything he owns into that black hole. I’ve yet to hear about a Goon Squad threatening to kneecap anyone for overpaying extortion money.

 

Third, no matter how magnanimous the liberal, at some confiscation level (we’re at least 70% for many people now) even he will begin to squawk. You can be sure “fair” will begin to pop up with increasing frequency in his conversations as the “take” moves closer to 100%. And yet, we conservatives are characterized as cold and uncaring for objecting to the present levels of extraction.

 

Is there any logic here? Previous to were I now live, I spent over nine years fighting city and county agencies relative to a huge environmental insult they forced onto my neighborhood. Hundreds of hours in the county law library and countless meetings with government employees taught me not to expect much from “government group think” I too often detect in so many liberal positions, but perhaps someone can convince me otherwise.



Tex   3,881 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
1. Nov 7, 2009 12:38 PM in response to: Mudrunner
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Mudrunner wrote:


[P]erhaps someone can convince me otherwise.

I doubt it and certanily won't be wasting my time trying to do so.  You want consistency.  The only way to be 100% consistent in a society as complicated as ours is to be an idealogue.  Sometimes ideals conflict and one has to decide which is the greater ideal and pursue it.

 

Sorry our democratic principles don't seem to work for you.

Dobroguy   134 posts since
Apr 6, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
2. Nov 8, 2009 9:56 AM in response to: Mudrunner
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

>Is there any logic here? <

 

I certainly can't see any.  Sorry bout' the environmental insult thingy.  You can waste a whole lot of time really fast with social/political conundrums.

 

Later...

rbiii

Tex   3,881 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
3. Nov 8, 2009 3:48 PM in response to: Mudrunner
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Mudrunner wrote:

 

 

And yet, we conservatives are characterized as cold and uncaring for objecting to the present levels of extraction.

 

Is there any logic here? Previous to were I now live, I spent over nine years fighting city and county agencies relative to a huge environmental insult they forced onto my neighborhood.


Oh, yeah, I wanted to congratulate you on your warm and caring nature.  I'm sure the fact it was your neighborhood had no bearing on your willingness to give so much time and energy to the fight.

markf   106 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
4. Nov 8, 2009 5:25 PM in response to: Mudrunner
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Mudrunner,


Yes, your problem with liberals has to do with your own lack of logic.  As I am the person that you are talking about, let me explain myself to you.  First, there is a big difference between liberalism and socialism.  In socialism, the state owns the means of production.  There is no private enterprise.  This has nothing to do with liberalism.  If you can't see the difference, I suggest that you go back to school to be properly educated.  I am a liberal because I believe that the government should provide a safety net for those who might otherwise starve or die because of a lack of money to pay for health care.  I am also pro-choice and think the drug laws in this country are counter-productive.  Actually, I consider myself conservative in fiscal issues.  If we have any money, it is because we have been prudent in our spending and saving substantial portions of our modest salaries.  We paid off our mortgage after about 10 years by wise investments and sending our gains to the bank to pay it off, so that we now live rent-free.  We have credit cards which we pay off every month so that we do not pay interest on a balance.  Presumably, if you do not have much now, it is because you have not been prudent enough.  Isn't that right?  I would say that the Bush administration was actually not conservative, but highly radical since they followed an unproven economic plan, supply side economics, that failed when Reagan was president and, sure enough, failed a second time.  I have no doubt that when the Republicans get into power again, they will once again push this radical economic theory since they are the party of the "have-mores" as Dubya called them.


Now, I would not send you $9000 because I am not required by law to do so.  When I said I would be happy to pay $1 million in taxes, that would be because I had a very high income and the federal and state laws required me to do so.  I am greatly obligated to this wonderful country and try to abide with its laws.  That seems perfectly logical to me.


I don't know where you get this 70% taxation level.  I believe that the current maximum rate for federal taxes is 35% on income above about $370,000.  After we follow the Bush tax cut plans and let the rates expire, I believe that it will rise to 39.6%.  Of course, capital gains and dividends are mostly taxed at a much lower rate.  Then there are state taxes, and, in some cities, like New York City, there are city taxes.  How do you get to 70%, or are you being illogical and spreading misinformation again?


Mark


Prayers for my Mom, by Nicole   1,164 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
5. Nov 8, 2009 8:40 PM in response to: markf
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

" I am a liberal because I believe that the government should provide a safety net for those who might otherwise starve or die because of a lack of money to pay for health care.  I am also pro-choice and think the drug laws in this country are counter-productive."


Oh Mark I just wanted to tell you from these 2 sentences that I really like you and I love being a Liberal too!   I realize that since my mom didn't have health insurance many people would have just let her DIE 3 years ago, but because of people like you she didn't and lived a good 3 years

hugs, nicole

greeney   189 posts since
Apr 9, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
6. Nov 8, 2009 11:24 PM in response to: markf
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

I've also gotta say I felt all warm and fuzzy from those 2 very fine lines Mark, I've read and I've read facts and opinions (would seem more opinions than facts) in regards to the debacle on health reform over there.  I'm an outsider looking in and cannot for the life of me understand the illogical greed of the "Have-more's", no wonder there are many living on the streets. I too am also pro choice in regards to more issue's than just drugs, I have enjoyed reading your logical thoughts in comparison to some other replies I have found absolutely ridiculous which fail to even merit response.

 

And congrats on the bill passing for much needed health reform, Obama is doing far more for the people in comparison to bygone years with that "Whats his name"! With health care reform you can have the best of both worlds and those less fortunate can rest at ease.

 

Jenn

markf   106 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
7. Nov 9, 2009 9:15 AM in response to: greeney
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Nicole and Jenn,


Thank you for the kind words.


Mark

stagsgirl   109 posts since
Oct 13, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
8. Nov 9, 2009 12:00 PM in response to: Mudrunner
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

MarkF - loved your post!  You are so much more articulate than I could ever be, and I thank you for representing all of us liberals with you response.  Keep it up!!

 

Leslie

 

p.s. I seem to recall you and Tex getting into a wonderful, heated discussion of religion a few years back. Is my memory correct? Not that I am trying to revive that discussion, but it was fun to read...

Tex   3,881 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
9. Nov 9, 2009 12:48 PM in response to: stagsgirl
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

I don't think it ever got terribly heated.  But Mark and I had an ongoing discussion/debate about faith and reilgious issues.  We've also done abortion, CSA vs USA (what caused the war, slavery or other economic/social issues) and health care that I can remember.

 

Ah!  Those were the days.

Tex   3,881 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
10. Nov 9, 2009 12:51 PM in response to: markf
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Can't say I got all that warm and fuzzy about those two lines, Mark.  The thought is simply too logical and obvious to me.  That some people apparently can't see that's a problem that needs to be fixed not yesterday but decades ago amazes me.

markf   106 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
11. Nov 9, 2009 1:49 PM in response to: Tex
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Thank you Leslie.


Yes, Tex, I think that what I said is rather obvious, except to a so called conservative.


Mudrunner,


I presume that you think of yourself as a conservative.  Actually, the question that you asked above can be turned around.  As a presumed conservative, why are you asking me for a handout?  I thought that you believed in self reliance.  Is this conservative logic?  I've heard it said that conservatism and free enterprise principles are for the poor, but socialist principles are for the rich.  Is that where you are coming from?  I will be leaving tomorrow for about a week, and I'm not sure if I will have Internet access, so if you want to, you should respond soon.


Mark

markf   106 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
13. Nov 9, 2009 2:02 PM in response to: Mudrunner
Re: Looking for Liberal Logic

Mudrunner,


As I said above, I am a liberal, not a socialist.  I believe in the free market system.  I also don't recall saying that you were bad.  That is just an assumption on your part.  What I did take you to task for was for posting erroneous information.  You seem to be better at asking questions than answering them.  Where did you get the 70% tax rate from?  And, since you believe that the government has the right to ask for some taxes, does that make you a socialist?


Mark

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...