The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society - Fighting Blood Cancers
14 Replies Last post: Nov 2, 2009 6:06 PM by Tonya  
nana   158 posts since
Apr 3, 2009
Currently Being Moderated

Oct 29, 2009 8:27 AM

AVN question...

Has anyone had AVN present with denser bone rather than a loss of density?  We had our clinic appt. yesterday and our Onc says his bone looks like it has a dense bone mass not a loss of density.  Now we are waiting for other results from  osteo exam,MRI and another bone scan thing( sorry big long name and I only heard it in french so I don't know).  The drs cannot agree if it is AVN and whether to stop steroids.  He didn't get them this cycle but is due in 2 wks so I need some answers pretty quick. Our main Onc is not decided about steroids because Jakob is Very High Risk and just started maintenance, the secondary Onc and Ortho want steroids to stop forever......  Any advice would be great!!

 

Thanks,

Nana

King Alex   116 posts since
Apr 6, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
1. Oct 29, 2009 2:47 PM in response to: nana
Re: AVN question...

Alex started showing scattered AVN in both hips about 6 months into LTM. No other symptoms (pain etc.) We chose not to stop the steroids but closely monitor his bones. We are coming up to week 100 in maintenance and he had a MRI a week or so ago - it showed no necrosis. Alex is young (4) and the bones can repair more readily than older kids.

Our doc explained to us when Alex first presented with AVN that the AVN present was the result of the steroids taken months ago - so the steroids damage the bone slowly. Chances are that if they are seeing damage now it is from steroids taken a while back.

Did they do a baseline MRI before steroid use?

Is your son having a lot of pain? I guess with him being high risk I would be worried about stopping any of the meds unless it was absolutely necessary. I am only guessing but if the doctors can't agree if it is even AVN it must be small changes. I don't think I would stop the steroids unless they are causing huge issues with the bone integrity.

Gina

Angela E. A.   51 posts since
Apr 7, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
2. Oct 30, 2009 10:59 AM in response to: nana
Re: AVN question...

First, the bone density issue and AVN are two different things.  You can have one without the other. AVN is dead bone, and dead bone is dead bone.  Bone is constantly reabsorbed into the body and regenerated.  But when the blood supply is interrupted, this process stops/stalls.  In children, however, because of the growth rate, this process, though slowed, can eventually restart.   Next, your othopedist and radiologist are the most qualified to read the MRI and scans. Oncologists, for the most part, don't really know what they are looking at.  I discovered this when Aidan was first diagnosed with AVN.  First the oncologist said AVN, then no AVN, then right hip, then left hip.  Don't mess around - just get the experts' opinion.  Thirdly,  AVN really exploded recently when they added dex to the protocol. Before that it was rare ( or rarely diagnosed).  Next I discovered that the oncologists don't really know ( or really want to know ) about AVN.  Their focus is on the cancer.  That is rightly so.  Your orthopedist is focused on his bones.  YOU are the only one who has to focus on your child's entire well being.  Aidan's AVN was extensive, so the Children's Oncology Group, which runs the protocol recommended stopping the steriods.  I was happy to do so because I hated them anyway, and my child, who had survived all this extra chemo he received being randomized to the arm with the extra chemo, was completely felled by these steroids.  I never ever want to see him in that kind of pain ever again in my life unless he's giving birth!  He would wake up from sleep, turning over in bed, screaming from pain.  Aidan on narcotics indefinitely was not a desirable solution for me.  That said stopping the steroids was a conversation, where I was made fully aware of the risks. Depending on the extent of the damage, you can make several decisions. To stop all together and see if there is sustained improvement. To stop and restart.  To reduce the dosage. To stop and restart at a reduced dosage.  Or not to stop at all.  The same kind of decision you have to make if you had toxicity from 6mp, for example. There is no wrong answer.  Aidan's docs and I tried many things.  But stopping the steroids immediately eventually paid off.   Also, the AVN does heal in children if the damage is relatively small.  Even though Aidan's right hip was collapsed in November of last year, a year later it is beginning to heal.  The other thing I persuaded his docs to try was to reduce the methotrexate dosage since AVN is a late effect of the methotrexate. And even though they told me that it was rare, I reminded them that so was AVN in a 7 year old.  And I reasoned that Aidan apparently had a susceptibility to AVN.  It seemed to help.  But I don't know for sure since this is not a controlled study.  But they were willing to try because they now have several other kids with debilitatingly painful AVN. Since I'm willing to try and they were  willing to let me, we tried it.  Stopping his 6mp didn't improve anything.  I increased his Vitamin D and added more calcium to his diet.

 

Yes - his oncologists are nervous about him being off the steroids. But NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, knew what the right answer was. And that's because they don't understand why or how the steroids cause AVN.  You will hear them say that " IT IS THE MOSTLY LIKELY CAUSE" of the AVN, but that's because they really don't know how it does it. And they continue to not know.  But AVN also develops from steroid use in other illnesses that use steroids such as asthma and lupus.  My 42 - year old sis-in-law is having a hip replacement next Friday because her right hip collapsed from AVN from a lifetime use of prenisone, and a tipping-over-the-edge IV steroid treatment for her mulitple sclerosis. It's also extensive in her left hip. My cousin, who has lupus, also has AVN.  That's how the oncologists can even reasonably suspect the steroids.  There is also AVN that develops from no known cause as well.  So whether Aidan might have been one of those kids anyway, and the steroids in DI tipped the scales. Who knows.  People can live their entire lives with AVN if it never progesses.  Even the COG hedged when I asked them and said they were exploring other options.  And across the country there was are any number of different scenarios that are happening to deal with this.  All of this is to say that there is no wrong or right answer here.  Just the decision of how to proceed that you decide on based on the extent of the AVN and the extent of his pain. You can have AVN that is not painful.   It's o.k. to try something for a couple of months, evaluate, try again, evaluate. It's what we do.  Do I worry about relapse?  A little. Since there are any number of kids on all different dosages of these chemos, or some not able to take some of the chemo at all, and they do just fine, and there are kids on a 100% of everything who still relapse, there are no guarantees of anything, and I choose to believe that Aidan will be fine. That's the trade off I'm willing to risk to have a child who went from being disabled and depressed last year, almost back to normal this year. This way all I have left to worry about is extreme chemo brain, extremely high liver counts, H1N1...;)

 

Keep asking questions here and of your docs, and don't accept incomplete information or explanations. Good luck.

Angela ( mom to Aidan, 8.999999) dx pre-b ALL 10/1/07, on protocol ALL0331,  on LTM since 5/19/08. dx with AVN 5/20/08. Stopped steroids 5/21/08. AVN - both hips, both shoulders, left ankle. All beginning to heal as of August 7, 2009. Aidan is now pain-free.

Elke'smom   208 posts since
Apr 4, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
4. Oct 30, 2009 3:30 PM in response to: nana
Re: AVN question...

Nana,

 

that is very interesting.  I know that when an MRI picked up Elke's osteonecrosis, they described what it showed as essentially a large "empty" area where there should have been bone tissue.  I'm curious as to why the onc thinks it's AVN if it's denser bone than usual.  Please let us know what the ortho says!

 

We have not stopped steroids, but only because it's only in one discrete area in one femur (right above the knee), and because she just started LTM and they don't want to stop the steroids then unless absolutely necessary.  This decision was made by our oncs in consultation with COG.  However, we are doing a follow-up MRI in 6 months, and if it has gotten more extensive we will reevaluate.

 

One option I might pursue then is switching from dex to prednisone, as dex is supposed to be worse for AVN.

 

Good luck, and let us know what you decide!  It's a difficult position to be placed in.  Since my daughter is only 3, though, I do realize that she has a high likelihood of being able to regenerate the bone tissue.

 

Ann

Tonya   221 posts since
Jun 17, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
5. Oct 30, 2009 1:44 PM in response to: Elke'smom
Re: AVN question...

I wonder why Dex is on the low-risk protocol, but Prednisone is the steroid

that Justin is supposed to receive throughout LTM on the high-risk protocol

0232?  Justin only received Dex in DI I believe.

 

 

Tonya Burkhardt

Odyssey Charter School of Nevada

K-8 Curriculum Facilitator

tburkhardt@odysseyk12.org

Elke'smom   208 posts since
Apr 4, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
6. Oct 30, 2009 3:34 PM in response to: Tonya
Re: AVN question...

Tonya, my guess (and this is only a guess, I warn you) is that high risk protocols call for more steroids (because of two DIs, etc), so the risk of AVN is greater on front-line treatment, so they decided to switch to pred for these kids on LTM?

 

Only a guess, but I have pondered this myself.

 

Ann

Tonya   221 posts since
Jun 17, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
9. Oct 31, 2009 12:56 PM in response to: Elke'smom
Re: AVN question...

Hmmm...

Justin only had one DI, lasting 59 days I believe.  He also had pred during induction. I will have to ask our onc why he receives pred through LTM instead of dex.

Chrissy   34 posts since
Jun 7, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
10. Oct 31, 2009 1:16 PM in response to: Tonya
Re: AVN question...

I think for the kids 10 and over they get the Pred instead of Dex. I think it was because they are more likely to get the AVN from the Dex than the younger kids are. Let us know what you find out.

 

www.caringbridge.org/visit/dylankinsey

Elke'smom   208 posts since
Apr 4, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
11. Oct 31, 2009 2:33 PM in response to: Tonya
Re: AVN question...

This gets more and more curious.  Elke's protocol uses dex throughout -- no prednisone at all.  I spoke to our onc about potentially switching to pred because of Elke's AVN, and she said it was something we could consider if it deteriorated.

 

Hmmmm.  Maybe we should all be asking our oncs about this.  I'm sure the answer does have something to do with AVN risks.

aboutthewin   51 posts since
May 20, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
13. Nov 2, 2009 10:25 AM in response to: nana
Re: AVN question...

The Dex vs Prednisone issue is puzzling, I will ask our Onc about it too. Andrew is 10, so he follows the high-risk protocol, and he rec'd Prednisone during induction, Dex during DI, and will go back to Prednisone for Maintenance. He is on AALL07P4, which is a study for the drug Oncaspar, a version of PEG that is IV (through his port) rather than as a shot in the leg. He had unbearable pain (all over, not just in the joints) during and for about a week after the 7 days on Dex during DI, so for that reason I'm glad he'll go back to Prednisone for maintenance. I will check with our Onc this week, too....

 

Kristen

www.aboutthewin.wordpress.com

Tonya   221 posts since
Jun 17, 2009
Currently Being Moderated
14. Nov 2, 2009 6:06 PM in response to: aboutthewin
Re: AVN question...

Justin had the same horrible pain with the dex in DI (back and legs). We've only had one 5 day pulse of prednisone so far in maintenance, but no noticeable side effects whatsoever. I hope that trend continues. What is also puzzling to me is that prednisone has been mentioned as a treatment option for certain muscle myopathies like polymyositis (as was suggested was a possibility from Justin's MRI) http://mayoclinic.com/health/polymyositis/DS00334/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs  -- but can also be the cause?  Crazy huh?



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